No surprise here....We the people, by the people for the people...Except in Wayne.

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Without getting in the middle of the debate on chickens one way or the other,I do think it's important to understand zoning rules. This isn't spot zoning. This zoning does apply town wide. Spot zoning is when rules are passed that target a particular property - be they permissive rules or restrictive rules. In all events, zoning is supposed to comport to the master plan, and deviation from the master plan ought to be for compelling reasons. Otherwise, why have a master plan in the first place? Policy decisions like this ought to be handled in the first instance at the master plan level, I suppose, which is a once a decade process. It's tough to change the course of a big ship, and for good reasons. I do admire you, victor, for your sustainability efforts and your passion. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the substance of the issue, I'd expect lots of folks admire you for taking the risk to try. You should feel good about that. This world needs people who have the courage of their convictions to take risks to pursue what they believe in. Let's get that garden going that we talked about!

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Watching that last night was comic relief. The blind leading the blind. Our elected officials at work. I'm glad it went this way. Wayne residents are starting to see with their own eyes how inept this council is. This is why Wayne NJ in buried in litigation on our tax dollars and unable to amend a 60 year old law to enable people to live a healthy greener life.

Then at the end of the meeting Joe Schweighardt had to put his little sarcastic dig in directly to Mr. Alfieri that he wanted to be right there when he started to work on the community garden at the former toxic dump site on Black Oak Ridge Road. The worst place to put a community garden and a dog park, toxic chemicals just don't disappear when you truck away some topsoil. That just amazes me, not too long ago I remember watching the workers (long after the toxic dirt was trucked out to Nevada) walking around inside the fenced off area completely cloaked in hazmet suits... a scary sight.

Currently in Wayne NJ, residents on ANY SIZE PROPERTY can own and raise the
following: 5 Dogs outside all the time in a dog house with a dog run, 6 Cats indoor or outdoor, unlimited amount of pigeons, in a coop, and in your backyard. You can raise, breed, sell, and slaughter as many rabbits as you want.

But I can’t have 3 – 2-pound chicken hens?

I can do all these things, but, I can‘t do the one thing that helps my family live a more healthy sustainable lifestyle, puts food on my table and saves my family money.

The current law allows 81 properties .48% to own chickens. If you’re wealthy and can afford 2 acres in Wayne, you sir, have the right to enjoy the benefits of healthy fresh eggs. You bottom dwellers will just have to suck it up, and eat the eggs packed with antibiotics, growth hormones, and additives.

Yet council members talk about balance. Where is the balance?

This council would NEVER have allowed this to happen. THEY ARE CONTROL FREAKS!!!!!!

What happened with the massage issue? Was it un-tabled?

Victor.....Is this something that a petition, signed by say perhaps, several thousand registered voters, could change? Is that plausible and if so, do you think it would change the minds of the 5 which voted no! Could a successful endeavor like that get the Council to reintroduce the ordinance and vote in a more favorable way? Keep in mind that you're dealing with some slick politicians here and they flow where they get votes and support. Just a thought. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this!

Regarding chickens, the neighbor says the birds have flown into her yard. We have no basis to not believe that statement, therefore it stands that the council was well within its right to make no changes. All the high sounding arguments regarding sustainability are just so much garbage when compared to the inability of the chicken owner to live as a good neighbor. There is no excuse for allowing your game to annoy your neighbor. End of story.

Based on that logic, all the cats and dogs that trespass should also be banned, like the poor hens.

I'm sorry to be interrupting the bashing of our town here, but I believe that people need to think before they type at times. Mr. Alfieri, at the meeting I counted approximately 8 people from 6 different homes in Wayne that spoke up in opposition. And your complaint about balance is unfounded. There is balance, and that is why I believe that we have many different council members who all have very educated opinions on what they believe should be done. I think that is why they VOTE on each ordinance after hearing the people. The vote has been cast, and I am sorry that it was not in your favor, but it was for the good of all people in our tightly packed town.
Cosmo, I think that the town is showing that they care about its residents. After all, those of us who do not wish to live so closely to chickens get to be respected, and all of those wishing to live an organic lifestyle can still do so, at farmers markets and organic sections of the supermarkets. It's not like the chickens being in your backyard is the only way to have sustainability.
As I have said before, if people are so unhappy about the way that they are treated in Wayne, why do you live here? If it was me, and I was this offended by something, I would move out of Wayne, instead of bashing the town every chance I got.
And Kathy, I don't think that Pandie is in the minority, and I commend her courage to stand up for what she believes in, in a town that she cares about.

Precisely, those whose dogs and cats roam the neighborhood should have their licenses revoked and their animals picked up. There is nothing more annoying than an animal owner who consistently does nothing to control the animal. I own a dog, I love my dog, His yard is fenced. I pick up his poop--and those who don't pick up poop cause problems for all other dog owners who follow the rules. My next door neighbor has a dog, his yard has electric fence. Our dogs are not permitted to stay outside and bark. We try and be responsible in our dealings with the neighbors who might not be so dog friendly.

I agree with Mr. Schweighardt and Ms. Bello and the council president. 10,000 Sq. feet is not enough area in this town to have chickens. For all the reasons that were mention at the meeting. I used to raise pheasants. They attracted Rats,racoons,possums and coyote and fox. These animals go after the eggs and the birds. Chances are there rabid. I feel that leaving the Ord. as it stands or changeing it to 40,000 Sq. feet would be the right thing to do. But 10,000 feet is to small of an area in neighborhoods. Plus I feel Victor Alfieri should be given a summons everyday he has the chickens on his property until the Ord. is changed. Then if he doesn't meet the standards of the new Ord? He should move to a place where he can keep his chickens. Everyone else in town has to live by it's laws. What makes him think he doesn't. The bottom line is I think the Council did the right thing last night.

Rob, I can live with that thread, provided that you don't go off on a wild tangent and start talking about "other things". The law on chickens is related to lot size.
The sky will not fall if there is no change to the law, for in the law we also recognize proportionality. Which is numbers affected in either camp. Those who would keep chickens in a suburban setting on relatively small lot being a distinct minority affecting those who would choose to not as a distinct majority. And being that their is no established right to keep chickens the majority interest as perceived by the legislators must be upheld.

It is not the township of Wayne that is being bashed...As far as moving to a different town is concerned, Wayne has a huge inventory of homes that are on the market, many listed at prices far less than what they were bought for before this economic downturn. Short of abandoning the properties (as is done in some states), many residents are stuck and frustrated at the continual increase of property taxes when they are no longer able to make ends meet. Lower the property taxes and there will be a happier citizenry. Economics affect the quality of life.

has anyone asked the chickens?

leanbean, your remarks lead me to think that you work for the town?

Seriously, Victor, will your hens be safe? I would hate to think that they would end up as someone's dinner. Is there someone who will provide shelter for them?

I can understand why Victor didn't get rid of his chickens when his neighbor first complained about them. I had chickens (and yes on a small lot in Wayne) when I was a teenager. We also had a very crabby neighbor that complained about everything we did, and I was always amazed he never complained only because he wasnt aware that the chickens were there (and the coup was about 10 feet from his bedroom, but luckily hidden by bushes). We loved those 2 chickens and I would have been devastated if we would have had to give them up. They were like members of our family. My parents knew we weren't allowed to have chickens but they did it anyway because my mother had grown up with them and found it a good learning experience for her children. I would never have been able to give up Henny or Greta either and would have fought just as hard as Victor to keep them, as I'm sure they are like family to he and his wife too.

@Sharon, accept my apology ---I was attempting to inject a little humor into the thread , on the topic that has so many feathers ruffled. I did not mean to make light of what sounds to be a very nice childhood memory.

I am ever thankful that we have Rob to remind me to stop being such a prig.

I heard last night that this ordinance was first introduced to the council in Dec, 2011. It is now April 4th. So what I am wondering is why was the council debating within each other last night at the 2nd reading of this ordinance? Shouldn’t they have done that already over the past 4 mos. If nothing else, shouldn’t they have done that between the 1st & 2nd reading. Did they not know this ordinance was on the books for the April 4th Meeting? I don’t understand why now they had questions about the proposal. Where were they during the other council meetings where this ordinance was proposed and introduced. Didn’t council Woman Bello say at the 1st reading she would vote yes to introduce the ordinance but wanted further discussion about it? Where was the further discussion? You are going to hash it out in front of all your residents like that? Extremely unprofessional. And these are the people running our “beautiful” town? I’m scared.

I finally had the time to look at the group portrait of the great Wayne council: 7 men and 2 women......Ms. Miller was dressed interestingly...at least Ms. Bello respected the position with a jacket...the males in the group were all dressed with jackets and various colored ties. They all looked happy... How nice...Everything is so wonderful and nice in the wonderful township of wayne......

This is all about learning and it’s going to take time. But please do the research on supermarket eggs before you pass judgment. The realities are shocking. If you’re a mother and are concerned about your child health this should be the up most importance.

Learn the truth and take it from there.

Controversial bird flu experiments produced no killer virus, scientists say
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/controversial-bird-flu-experiments-produced-no-killer-virus-scientists-say/2012/04/03/gIQAFBV7tS_story.html

Sorry Mrs Bello, it would appear your remarks last night about a conspiratorial gvt coverup on bird flu just doesnt hold up.

Nevermind about the government conspiracy Stewart. It is far more important to base decisions about issues that effect our residents by consulting "Google"! It was ridiculous to hear all about what is happening in every state except ours. Why didn't someone just lift the phone and contact experts at the Rutgers School of Environmental and Biological Sciences. It is one of the premiere institutions for agriculture (livestock, etc.) education in the country. I think they might have been able to find at least one expert willing to give them an "educated" opinion.

Not sure if anyone saw Nick Kristof's column in The Times yesterday? It's a great (and scary) read about arsenic and other chemicals found in chickens in our food supply.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/opinion/kristof-arsenic-in-our-chicken.html?_r=1&src=tp

The real issue here which no one wants to talk about is the favoritism of the council. 3 items were to be decided upon last evening. The massage parlor was put under the table. The poor hens were made homeless; however the Valhalla/Surrey neighborhood received what it wanted, without a wait. Could it be that Rumana's parents live in that neighborhood?

Stewart, Cathy, etal. This was a done deal before it started. The hens didn't have a chance of surviving. They were led along for whatever Machiavellian purpose. It is sad that they were so discriminated against (perhaps because they are female). There are pigeons, turtles, iguanas, rabbits, snakes, whatever; but the poor hens are now homeless.

when chickens are outlawed, then only outlaws will have chickens

Wayne isn't the only place around here dealing with this issue either. Jeff DelVecchio of New Milford was cited for having chickens and had to go to court. He's written a 10-part blog series called "Backyard Chickens"

http://newmilford-nj.patch.com/users/jeffrey-delvecchio-22e92924/blog_posts

Here's are the stories about the self-proclaimed "Chicken Outlaw" and his battle with New Milford. He ended up taking a deal after he was threatened with jail time.

http://patch.com/A-r8XJ

People, the bottom line is that the LAW OF THE TOWN. I agree wity leanbean. You can't just come in and change everything to fit you. I know very well about inconsiderate neighbors and if you give them an inch they will take a yard! What next goats for milk!! And I know for a fact Pandie's Mother passed away a while ago, shame on you for whoever said that about her Mother.

The LAW OF THE TOWN???? How about the fact that the flag was not lowered to half mast, per the GOVERNOR's ORDER????? You see, the Current Council/Mayor can't have it both ways. It is not do as I say; but not as I do..It is "Of the people, by the people, for the people".

Exactly Justice...there were way more people that spoke in favor of the new ordinance than there were opposing it. There were over 50 signatures on a petition all in favor of the new ordinance. So let's start listening to the people, our people, our residents, our tax payers. Let's do the right thing, for once Wayne, and stop being the joke of Passaic County. There have been alot of negative things going on in Wayne over the past few months. Let's for once take the high road and take a step forward in the Sustainable NJ effort. Let's be a "community" that other towns want to model and not a "community" that others say "it's a shame what is going on in Wayne."

What is it about representative democracy that you do not understand ?
If you think that government is run by how many people show up at a council meeting to speak in favor of a proposal , you are talking about mob rule, not representative democracy. If that were the case things like wind turbines allowed under law would be shouted down . The reason why they are within their province to not allow chickens on undersized suburban lots is and has nothing to do with the chickens per se, it has to do with the comfort and protection of the neighbors property rights. The chickens were a nuisance to the neighborhood. The neighbors rights trump the rights of a person to create a nuisance. Doesn't anyone study civics anymore.

@ Kathy, You state that Pandie said things that were untrue but don’t bother to back it up with any substantial proof. Interesting that you call her names and throw accusations around, why-because she has different believes? Calling names shows your lack of intelligence. Is this what you teach your children? Have you ever talked to her to understand her issues or are you too busy drinking the kool-aid Mr. Alfieri serves? You say she is against sustainability, local farms, or raising chickens. Is she? From what I’ve heard she is not, she is against raising chickens on a ¼ acre because it is too close to neighboring homes. Just because Mr. Alfieri wants to raise chickens, does not mean she has to smell or listen to them every day. Not spot-zoning? Maybe not by definition, but to have only Mr. Alfieri’s ‘guidance’ on the new ordinance. Tell me that ordinance wasn’t written for Mr. Alfieri’s benefit alone. Where is the balance? Why no buffer zone-Because Mr. Alfieri’s coups wouldn’t meet any. Talk about keeping the coups and area clean to deter vermin, unfortunately Mr. Alfieri doesn’t do that. Instead of disposing of it properly like dog owners, he takes the droppings and spreads it around his yard adding and multiplying to the droppings, and the odor. He illegally keeps 3 hens, lets them run loose in his yard, and doesn’t properly clean up after them. What part of any ordinance is Mr. Alfieri following?? Mr. Alfieri believes laws don’t apply to him.

The issue isn't just limited to chickens. The real concern is the over-riding lack of respect that the Mayor, Council, BOE has for its' citizens, their employers. Yes, we employ these people with our tax dollars. In turn, they are rude, condescending, Machiavellian, and act as though they are sitting on the Pantheon (no disrespect to any citizen who chooses a polytheistic religion - as there is a separation of Church and State in this country). Some of the people in this township want it to be similar to a condo/coop board or in a private community such as Smoke Rise (excluding those citizens who actually do live in condos/coops/Packanack/Pines Lake and subject to those rules). Most citizens prefer to have their solo piece of property and to do what they please with same without constant harassment from others who want to control them. The Council, etal are into control and do as I say, not as I do: evidenced by the total lack of respect to the Governor's Order. Wayne is not a dictatorship, although the Council, etal seems to want it that way.

Until the people care enough to make a change in the closed political system that cares more about Beefsteaks than people, we will have rulings that are political, not people oriented.
Time to change my party, and give up on decades of "Republican" support.
Time to change my town leaders, who care more about politics than people (regardless of the rhetoric!)

When a town sends its' public works department to cut grass (charged back to the taxpayer) because of complaining neighbors and doesn't realize that a World War II Veteran's body is lying in that house for a year...That tells me the priorities of that town and its' citizens..Think how sad that really is..A World War II Veteran laying dead and all they care about is the height of the grass...That Veteran shed his blood in order to preserve the freedoms of this country while citizens are thrown out of Council meetings because of over-blown egos...How many Council members shed their blood for this country???

yes Justice, it was truly a very telling state of affairs here in Wayne NJ where the man lay dead for a year with no one to care, as neighbors in this example mobilize to ban chickens?
but take heart, there has been a state wide class action suit filed that now holds municiplaities liable for heir lack of due dilligence in such situations where the city sends out its tax statements with nary a thought as to the well being of the citizen.
unfortunately it will be the tax payers left liable and holding the bag if thus suit proves viable in the courts because of the ineptitude and indifference of the township and its elected councils and mayors.

"...the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life; the sick, the needy and the handicapped. " ~ Last Speech of Hubert H. Humphrey

I guess I must be really missing the point because I fail to see how the government, the poor man that was found after a year or the Republican Party has ANYTHING todo with Mr. Alfieri having chickens for over 2 years on property that is WAY to small for them. The Ordinance is for 2 acres, NOT 1 acre, NOT 1/2 acre, NOT 1/4 acre. It is just like the speed limit on 287 is 65 mph, however people push it to 75 mph, 85 mph, but as a rule they will wind up with a ticket when they break the rules so for the life of me I just can't understand how this has been going on for so long!

@Jasmine, it doesn't, some of these folks have taken illogic to unchartered territory.

http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/07/11071866-saturdays-show-april-7
If you want to see why you may want to raise your own chickens and not purchase factory farm raised, check out this link. Warning....you may become a vegan.

My 2 cents -
Schweighart - two words - pompous windbag. I watched him ramble for about 10 minutes, took a shower, shaved, put the kids to bed, tuned back in and he was still trying to make the same point! Unaware of the committee? Some kind of conspiracy? I think not.

Bello - If you're going to compare other towns to Wayne, at least use towns comparable in size, demographics, and population to Wayne. I can say with confidence that Denver isn't a valid comparison.

Jimenez - rookie mistakes. Snide remarks? Voted against an ordinance you helped draft? Huh?

Scuralli -the biggest disappointment of all. You and I corresponded via email and face-to-face. At no time did you mention investment risk as your reason for voting no. The last time we spoke, you mentioned lot sizes. I would have hoped that you would at least have had the integrity and respect to tell me how you were voting and why

Regarding your assertions about the impact chickens have on property values, I challenge you to provide empirical data to substantiate your assertions. Without the data, your words are just that - words. You mention that you are a professor. Assign your students a project to gather the data to substantiate your assertion. If it can't be proven, stop making it.

Mazzei, Sadowski, Purcell - thank you for seeing this as the non- issue that it truly is. Too bad your common sense and understanding of the real role of government can't rub off on your fellow council members.

Scondo: "That speaks more to the ineptitude of staff than anything else. The inspector who made the violation." We cannot blame the inspectors; they, unfortunately, do what they are told for fear of losing their jobs. From what I have gathered, it is a hostile workplace.

I'm well aware that this Board is monitored. I awoke yesterday to 2 nastygrams from council member(s) whom I called out in my post; one contained what I almost consider to contain a veiled threat if the post was not removed.

I may be a recovering attorney, but I do remember two things - the First Amendment, and the standard as to what constitutes libel against a Public Figure or when the statement is made regarding a Public Concern.

Bottom line(s) - those who put themselves out in the public eye, particularly those in elected office, need to have thick skin. My post may have been hard for some to swallow, but it was based on fact. If anyone thinks its inappropriate, report it as such to Patch. Unless and until then, the post stays.

And count me in.

Rob, as you can see I changed my post name which was formally Al. Let's continue this and get more people involved.

I'm going to post the email exchange to my website as soon as I figure out how to do it. The name(s) of the author(s) will be removed, as will certain parts of their emails which would immediately give up identity(ies). It will be pretty apparent who contacted me. Give me a couple of days to figure out this technology stuff.

Interesting

Jeff,
1) Open up 2 separate windows. One for the emails and another for the Patch comment site.
2) Place the cursor at the beginning of what you want copied.
3) Highlight the area that you want to copy.
4) Right click the mouse on the copy entry.
5) Go to the Patch leave a comment section.
6) Place the cursor to where you want the words pasted.
7) Right click the mouse on the paste entry.
8) Either Submit or add to it and Submit.
Any questions, ask.

Woodlotfarms.com Presents

Benefits Of Raising Backyard Chicken Hens

With Local Urban Homesteading Expert Victor Alfieri

Urban Homesteading

Truth About Supermarket Eggs

Health & Sustainability

Removing The Myths

Room: Meeting Room A

Date(s): Saturday, April 21, 2012

Time: 10:00 AM Sharp to 12:00 PM